Matt Ward 00:01
Hey there, and welcome back to the next episode of the Mass Business Podcast. I’m your host Matt Ward and I am so happy to be here today. I’m wearing my brand new high five shirt, my book launches tomorrow. Super excited about that, and also super excited about our next guest on the podcast. Our next guest is Paige Arnof Fenn, she’s the founder and CEO of mavens and moguls based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Her clients include Microsoft, Virgin, The New York Times Company, Colgate, venture backed startups, as well as nonprofit organizations. She’s graduated from Stanford University and Harvard Business School. Paige serves on several boards and is a popular speaker and columnist, who has written for Entrepreneur and Forbes. I’m so excited to bring you our next guest Paige Arnof-Fenn, are you ready? Let’s go.

Matt Ward 01:16
Welcome to the Mass Business Podcast where small business owners, also known as risk takers share their stories about the growth of their business and themselves. Our interviews and our content is focused on growing a small business and understanding networking and referrals. I say it all the time. And I’ll say it again today. You never know where your next referral will come from.

Matt Ward 01:48
High five the world. Hey, welcome to the show page. Thanks for coming on.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 01:53
Hey, Matt, thanks for having me.

Matt Ward 01:55
I’m so happy you’re here. Want to make sure that people understand that I did flub that introduction. You are a columnist to use my words correctly. But in just under 30 seconds, sell our podcast listeners on their favorite app, and also those watching on YouTube. What it is you do.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 02:14
I basically am a marketing consultant. I work with organizations to help them find the right words and pictures to tell their story in compelling ways.

Matt Ward 02:23
Got it. And so you’ve been working, your small business yourself? Is it just you and some consultants or do you have employees?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 02:30
I’ve got about four dozen independent contractors that work under the mavens and moguls umbrella. And I started about 20 years ago. It’s so hard to believe.

Matt Ward 02:38
Yeah. I remember when I had my agency, right. It wasn’t, you know, we had eight full time people and probably another, I don’t know, a dozen part time contractors here and there, depending on the project. And I ran that for 16 years up to 2018. It was quite, quite there. I started it in 2002. When did you start your company?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 02:59
Right after 911. Literally.

Matt Ward 03:02
So you’ve been going 30 years? That’s 30 years now. 911? Was

Paige Arnof-Fenn 03:13
2001. It’s 2021.

Matt Ward 03:15
So is it 20 years? Yeah, I guess it’s 20 years because I ran my company. 16 years, and I started ’02 right. And I sold it in ’18. So okay, yeah. So right around 20 years. Yeah, I don’t know. It feels like it’s been 30 years since 911. Right? I have to deal with that every year, that happens to be my birthday as well. So it’s always one of those crazy days. So what has been your I mean, as a marketing consultant, right, that I run into this all the time, because when I was in the web world, and now as a business coach or referral coach, I run into marketing consultants all the time. What makes a marketing consultant effective at what they do, like how does a company work with a marketing consultant in a way that’s going to help them grow? How do they pick the right one?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 04:07
So there are a lot of good ones out there. I definitely am not the only person that could help. In my experience, I think the best marketing consultants know what they know and know what they don’t know. And if they don’t know something, they either know people that can help you that they would either pull in or refer you to. I think where you get into a marketing malpractice situation is when people either over promise or kind of stretch beyond their comfort zone. In my case, you know, I’m a classically trained consumer packaged goods marketer. I started my marketing career at Procter and Gamble. Back in 1990. You know, p&g invented the concept of brand management, and they compete In a number of different categories, and every category they compete in, they’re at least number one, if not number one and two. So you’re talking, you know, Pantene for shampoo and Pampers diapers and bounty paper towels and Charmin toilet paper. And I mean, every category, they are the leader. So I learned, you know, it was like Marketing Bootcamp. I always tell people, I got my MBA at Harvard, but I got my PhD in marketing at Procter and Gamble. They invented the concept and they drill it into you, it is absolute bootcamp, you learn every single part of the marketing mix. And having worked there for three years, I feel like I really got grounded in the fundamentals. And then I kind of branched out from there, I ran a global program for the Olympics for the 96 Games in Atlanta. Then I went to Coca-Cola as Assistant Chief Marketing Officer. And again, Coca-Cola, the most recognized brand in the world. So I think being well trained, is a great foundation. But you know, you have a lot of the trappings around you, and I always questioned in my corporate marketing days. Was I good? Or was the company good? Like, am I?

Matt Ward 06:22
Because they had an unlimited budget, basically, compared to every small business who’s listening to this. Probably driving right now going, I don’t have a budget of Coca-Cola.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 06:33
Exactly. And those brands, the brands I worked on at p&g were decades old. Coca-Cola, you know, is over 100 years old. So I always wondered, you know, is it me? Or is it the fact that I’ve got this legacy brand that’s loved, where you do have just millions 10s of millions of dollars. So I left Coca Cola when the.com When kind of.com 1.0, the kind of first wave of the internet in the mid to late 90s. When that started, I got bitten by the.com bug. And I went and ran marketing at my first startup out in Los Angeles in the music and entertainment space. No one had ever heard of it before. But I really consider myself kind of a pop culture junkie. The last brand I worked for at Procter and Gamble was Covergirl cosmetics, they don’t own it anymore. But you know, for work, I got to read People and Cosmopolitan and Rolling Stone. And, you know, you had to be up on all the kind of cool, hip things to be able to, you know, successfully market a cosmetics brand. And so I kind of went from the fashion and cosmetics world into the music and entertainment world, which was a very easy transition. And the company was out in Los Angeles. And it was like I said, The Wild West, it was before the internet bubble burst the first time. And it was a wild ride, we raised about $30 million. When it was super easy to raise money. Almost all of it went into marketing. We went public in 1999. And then we were sold to Yahoo. And it became Yahoo music. So that was incredibly fun. And then I got hired by a second Internet startup. It was a business to business portal. So that was my first foray out of the kind of b2c World, consumer marketing, into more b2b. And we also raised a lot of money, and also ended up getting sold to a larger private company. The dirty little secret I always tell people is everyone thinks when you go public, you get rich. Well, I made a little money, it was good. But you know, I was in the perspective, so I couldn’t sell my stock until it was way off the peak. When a private company buys you, they just write you a check. And you can go to the bank and deposit it. So if you ever have the choice, get bought, don’t go public.

Matt Ward 09:06
Yeah, right. Now, so when you when you started doing your own thing, what was the real difference between sort of working for these big conglomerates with a head on the money? Now you’re a marketing consultant, and you have to market yourself? What exactly did you do when you started 20 years ago to get the marketing going? Like think way back, think back right to the very beginning. What’s the first couple things you did in week one or month one of your business?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 09:34
So the most important thing is you need a good name. You need a good logo, you need a good tagline and you need a website. You do not exist today if people can’t find you online. And after having big corporate marketing brands and big budgets, and then going to scrappy entrepreneurial brands with these startups. I did three startups as the head of marketing, and all three of them had good exits. So I felt like Okay, I did learn something, I learned the fundamentals. And I was able to translate that into a small business, where all three of those businesses ended up getting bought or going public or both. And then when you do it for yourself, when you’re the brand, it’s almost the scariest of all, you have the least amount of budget, maybe. But the brand is you. And you know, it’s very easy for me to promote a product or a service where I can just point to that tell you, these are the greatest features, these are the greatest benefits. But when people are hiring you as a professional service, and it’s your firm, and it’s you behind the brand, you have to treat yourself, I mean, you are the brand, even though my name is not on the logo, my name is not the name of the company, my company is mavens and moguls, I am absolutely associated with that brand. So getting the right kind of look and feel from the very first days was absolutely critical. And then once you kind of start with, again, you’re starting with your foundation with your fundamentals, and you build slowly from the ground up. So you figure out how am I going to get those very first clients that can be reference testimonials for you, to help you build those case studies so that you can continue to grow and

Matt Ward 11:33
How would you recommend professional services do get those first clients? because I think getting that ball rolling and, you know, I talk a lot about referrals, referrals rarely come from clients, most times people think that they do they come from referral sources instead. But for the people that think that they come from clients, how do they get their first client to really move, move that forward?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 11:58
So Matt, this is a great question. And you and I were talking about this before the show today, I got my very first client from giving a talk. And I don’t consider myself like a professional speaker in that I don’t make my living on the professional speaker circuit. But I love doing public speaking. And my very first client, I was invited to come speak to a group of women entrepreneurs and women business owners. And I gave a talk about kind of demystifying marketing. And this was literally I had just hung out my shingle gotten my business cards. And I gave a talk about why I think….. my tagline is – Because Marketing Matters. So I’m very passionate about marketing. I really believe in marketing. I think a lot of people think of marketing as a necessary evil. I actually believe it’s incredibly powerful. I had a marketing professor in business school, they used to say marketing is everything. And everything is marketing. And I used to always snicker when he said it. I’d like giggle and be like whatever. The truth is, the longer I’ve been doing this, I think it is all about marketing. So I gave a talk to a group of women there were maybe, I don’t know, 100 women in the room. Afterwards, one of the women, several women came up to talk to me and get my business card. One of the women said to me, could I get two cards, because I have a friend who’s a small business owner, and he really could use your help. I’d love to make an introduction. I’m going to be seeing him tomorrow. And I’d love to give him your card and make an introduction. I’ll have him follow up with you. I said absolutely. The very next day she made an intro. He and I met that week. And he was my very first client and it became a $10,000 a month retainer, piece of business and I was up and running, we were ready to go. So I am a big fan of public speaking. I also like content marketing, I like to write. So I do a lot of, as you said, I used to do a regular column for Entrepreneur Magazine and Forbes magazine every month. So I write, I speak, I contribute. I like to guest blog, I don’t have my own blog. But you know, I love contributing to other people’s blogs. And if you stick to your strengths, and I know that’s one of your kind of core tenants. And that’s maybe a theme of your year this year for your show. I know what my strengths are.

Matt Ward 14:31
What are they? Is it writing?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 14:35
It’s writing and speaking. At my core, I’m a communicator, I like talking. If you talk to people who know me, they say oh my god, she can talk your ear off. So I know what’s right for me. And I just stick to my strengths. And that’s that was the path that got me my first client and then it started growing from there.

Matt Ward 14:55
Did you know your strengths before you went into business or did you start discovering them after you were already in your own business?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 15:02
So that’s a great question. I think when things come natural to you, you know, I don’t think I ever realized, I never thought of myself. It’s like, oh, I’m a great speaker. But the truth is, I love telling stories. I love sitting around talking to people. I always wrote postcards and kept journals. And I think when enough people start telling you or bosses say, let’s give that project to Paige, she’s really good at that. When you start hearing it over and over and over, you learn through experience that Ha, I’m pretty good at this. Um, those were my best grades. Those were the things that my bosses appreciated the most. Those are the things my friends would always refer to, you know, I love that thing you wrote, could you write something else? I would, you know, I could really use your help, would you give a speech at this thing for me? And so I think it was like the red flashing sign in front of me. And finally, I just said, Oh, I guess this really is good. And I mean, I’m sure people who are naturally gifted athletes, you know, Michael Jordan, was a good athlete before he was Michael Jordan. But it doesn’t mean you don’t train, you don’t practice. But you do get better over time. And I think you just kind of embrace your strengths and kind of perfect them as you age. And you stick to that. You know, I think I’m much more comfortable now delegating things that are not as intuitive or natural for me, because I realized as much as I try and work hard, I’m probably never going to be as good at those things as other people who love that. So that was kind of the premise of my whole business. I assembled a group of what I consider to be these marketing rockstars. And everybody gets to do exactly what they do best. So if you need, you know, technology PR, I have the best technology PR people. If you need a logo and a tagline. I will introduce you to those people. But you don’t have to do things you don’t like doing. I just assemble the great, you know, the greatest talent for people that love doing what they do.

Matt Ward 17:20
And I mean, I think that one of the challenges with the strength side of small business owners, we often don’t, there’s two sides to it right? The first is, there’s a chicken and the egg issue, outsourcing versus money to pay for the outsourcing and outsourcing our weaknesses and sticking to our strengths, right? And then the second side of it is really just, you know, there’s the control side. And actually, now that I think of it, there’s probably a third side, which is really just not knowing the strength. I think strengths come with time. And we start to as we develop, we go, oh, wait, that’s a weakness. Oh, wait, I’m much better at this. Oh, wait, I’m doing this task. And while I like to do it, I’m not necessarily great at it. I could probably, you know, like bookkeeping, I could probably have somebody do my bookkeeping, or even my marketing, or my Facebook ads, or my Facebook posting, or whatever it might be. And I think too often, we don’t take time to pause and think about what we should be outsourcing. Now. Um, early on in your business, when you go way back as a as a marketing consultant. What do you think you struggled with back then?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 18:33
Oh, boy. I mean, I think as a new new business owner, as an entrepreneur, everything is so new, as you said, you don’t even know what you’re the best at yet. I think I was very quick to outsource things like accounting, bookkeeping, payroll, legal, all the things that I just knew, like you said, I didn’t want to spend the time and energy that I get paid well, to do the work I do well, so I wanted to spend as much of my kind of waking hours and energy doing the stuff that I can get kind of top dollar for. And a mentor once said to me, you know, if you have a problem and you have the money, any problem that can be solved with money is not a problem when you have the money. And I think that’s not bad advice. So, you know, if you don’t like doing accounting, if you don’t like doing your bookkeeping, find those people who love it, and you know, pay them fairly, they’ll knock it out of the park every time. A lot of people say, Oh, I can just go online and build kind of a, you know, a simple website. Well, you can do it. Is that really what you want to do over your holiday or every weekend?

Matt Ward 19:46
nights and weekends? Like when I ran an agency I heard that all the time. I can do it for a third of the money okay, yeah, you know what, you can there’s no doubt. It’s interesting because I think now it’s, you know this whole, there’s a whole issue with chicken in the egg with small business owners, right? How long did it take you to get involved with networking when you started your own business?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 20:16
So I am a big fan of networking, I hit the ground running on the networking front. You and I were joking before. I’m not a big joiner in general. But because I was a first time entrepreneur, I quickly realized I kind of needed to find my tribe. And I joined two groups of women entrepreneurs and women business owners, right out of the gates. I’m very active in my alma mater, alumni clubs. I ran my college alumni club, I’ve been on the board of both my college and my grad schools boards. So I was very, very active in a networking standpoint, to the point where and I’m married to a fellow entrepreneur. And we started our companies within about six weeks of each other. And he’s the cook of the family. So I don’t cook at all. And we were both working nonstop in the early days. So I literally would go to networking events for breakfast, lunch, and cocktails, like at least four days a week, because he would get up and need to work and I’d get up and if he wasn’t fixing breakfast, I got to eat. So I would show up at a breakfast event, a lunch event, a coffee event, a cocktail,

Matt Ward 21:39
You were replacing your husband’s cooking with networking, freebie, breakfast, and lunch, not really free, because you probably paid 20, 30 bucks to go to it.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 21:48
You go but you know, someone was fixing my food. And I got to meet great people. And the people in my company within my organization used to joke, when they have those events where it was like a seated, you’re at a table that they should put signs next to my chair, the chairs next to me that say be careful, this chairs gonna cost at least $25,000. Because I end up talking to people, I love to chat, I love to kind of hear what’s happening. And so I’d be sitting next to somebody I’d say so what do you do? You know, what’s your biggest problem? You know, what’s going on? What do you wish you could get fixed what you know, and they talk and talk, I just ask a few open ended questions. And by the end of the meal, I would exchange cards, I’d go back to the office, I’d send them a note and say I love chatting with you this morning. You know, you mentioned you wish that you had materials for the trade show coming up. You mentioned that you wish that you could get on a speaking circuit or, you know, start publishing your own newsletter. If you’d really like to pursue that, let me know. I’m happy to put you in touch with some great people that I know could help. And a lot of times they follow up and say oh my god, thank you so much. I forgot I even told you about that. Yes, please introduce me to your web designer. Please talk to me about an email newsletter. I’ve been wanting to do it for years, and I never took the time to figure out how to do it. And so I end up getting work out of it. I get a project. And the same thing would happen over coffee and then the same thing would happen over lunch. So I kept a lot of people busy just going out to get food.

Matt Ward 23:36
Yeah. So. So that’s good. I mean, I think that’s a good point is those people listening and watching on YouTube, Listening on the podcast apps and stuff that you like. Get involved with some of these networking events that have these breakfast’s so that other people can cook for you. But you should be able to meet some people and ultimately make some sales and some relationships.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 24:00
But even in the days of COVID I mean you can get virtual coffee meetings.

Matt Ward 24:04
Yeah, you can and there are even live, in person stuff happening right now. It’s all it all depends on you know, the organization and how comfortable you are and everything with the upticks and whatnot. But I’ve been doing a number of live stuff myself, and it’s always good to see people. I ran a golf tournament in August, called The Big Event and we had over 100 people for dinner. I mean, it was great networking, powerful.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 24:29
The nonprofit I’m on the board. I’ve we’ve had a golf tournament the past two summers and they’ve been sold out.

Matt Ward 24:34
Yeah, yeah. So biggest mistake you made marketing.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 24:39
Oh my god, where do we begin? I think the biggest mistake a lot of people make

Matt Ward 24:46
no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you made, you. I want to know what you Oh, no, no, the marketing consultant. I want to know the biggest mistake the marketing consultant made.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 24:55
I mean, I think we’re all, maybe it’s me I’m a little type a neurotic, you know, we all have those perfectionist tendencies. And I think, you know, when I was starting out, you want everything to be perfect your website, your business card, your stationery, you know, every piece of collateral material, everything. And I think what I learned is you really don’t need to wait for perfection because perfection never comes. You got to throw it out there.

Matt Ward 25:32
yeah, Done is better than perfect. I say that all the time.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 25:38
Yeah. And a lot of people kind of laughed and said, you know, here you are a marketing consultant. You know, that’s not a very fancy website. No, but, you know, there’s a 1.0 and a 2.0.

Matt Ward 25:51
Yeah, my website agency, we were the last people to do our own website. And I mean, you know, it’s the cobblers kids shoes kind of thing.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 26:00
We are all cobblers kids. And I always joke that the marketing consultants and the agencies that have the fanciest most up to date websites that have time to blog and tweet and update their status every day, they probably don’t have a lot of paying clients, because they’re spending a lot of time navel gazing. I think people like you and me, who just throw it out there and kind of say, well, I’ll get around to it when I have a break. If you’re busy. That’s a good problem.

Matt Ward 26:26
Well, and also to you come from the startup world, which is MVP, minimum viable product, right. And so you got to get to market as quickly as possible. Some of the stuff and small business owners, I think, one of the challenges I’ve always said is that they don’t make decisions quick enough. If they make them quicker, the quicker they make a decision, if they make the wrong decision, they have time to pivot. But if they don’t make a decision for too long, then time passes, and they’re unable to pivot and correct in enough time to solve the problem, the issue, the concern. And so paralysis by analysis is a real thing. Like people need to make decisions and go, and then suffer the consequences if they made the wrong one. I’ve made plenty of wrong ones in my life. Even in the last couple of weeks, I’ve made some really bad ones. You know,

Paige Arnof-Fenn 27:14
When I was CNG, and we did market research, it took literally 9 to 12 months to feild the research. I mean, when I worked in my first startup in Los Angeles, we would come up with an idea at breakfast over coffee, we would go down to the beach and intercept people on the beach that look like our target audience, and ask them some questions. And then we’d come back to the office in the afternoon, and throw up on our website, the feedback that we got that day over lunch. And every day, we just iterated and iterated and iterated. And like you said, we threw it up there. We made some mistakes. And every day we got better. We could see on the click throughs. We could see we were getting better traction. Yeah. And I think that’s the way you have to do it. Because if you wait 9 to 12 months today, you’re dead. I mean, the world works on internet time.

Matt Ward 28:13
So a couple of questions, I like to ask my guests before I let them go. The first one is software. I’ve always believed that many small business owners don’t know, what is the best software to use. So what software that is not industry specific to you. It can be a game changer for another small business.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 28:31
I mean, my first job out of college before I went to business school, I was an analyst on Wall Street. So I know this is gonna sound weird, but I am a big fan of Excel. I use it for like, not just my taxes and keeping track of all the kind of financials. Yeah, it’s really more of a CRM for like, I use it, like I am very comfortable with Excel, because that’s kind of my training and my background. And going back to our conversation earlier, you kind of have to stick to your strengths. A lot of people like Oracle and PeopleSoft and HubSpot, and I don’t use all the fancy CRM systems, I use what works for me, I’m a big fan of email. Like I am very, you know, old fashioned in that regard. So I think you have to kind of know what your own preferences are.

Matt Ward 29:28
And I think some people have mentioned Google Sheets before, you know, so So that’s something that I mean, I think, you know, I use Excel, I’ve kind of migrated to the Google Sheet stuff. And I like the formulas and the graphs and the charts and the pretty charts and stuff. So if you’re gonna use it, that’s the point. One thing I always like is to tell people is. What’s the best software? It’s the one you actually use, at the end of the day.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 29:47
That is the perfect answer.

Matt Ward 29:49
So the next question that I always like to ask people is, what business book would you recommend another small business owner read?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 29:57
So again, I’m a bit of a maybe throwback to another generation. I think if you haven’t read Dale Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People, you’re missing the boat. Like I think it’s tried and true evergreen, great advice. I think in terms of more current books, Ann Handley

Matt Ward 29:57
Everybody Writes Yeah.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 29:58
You know, again, you don’t have to be the world’s best communicator. But you are always writing on email, you know, you don’t have to be a columnist anywhere. But I think communicating clearly really matters. And I think she’s really good at it.

Matt Ward 30:41
And her emails are great. Yeah, I actually was in a speaker training program with Ann Handley. And yeah, she’s great. She’s a great friend to have.

Paige Arnof-Fenn 30:53
I spoke at one of their conferences, and she’s the real deal.

Matt Ward 30:57
She’s the type of friend that will be by your side all the time, you know, I see that with her and all her close friends. So

Paige Arnof-Fenn 31:04
I think the other one I would recommend if you don’t know David Meerman Scott, oh, yeah, he’s another kind of tried and true. He’s been a practitioner. You know, he’s been in the chair. He’s been the Chief Marketing Officer. He’s got the wounds in his back. He’s got all the war stories. And he’s written a million great books. One of the latest ones is on kind of how to create fans, and fanocracy. And, you know, he just every bit of advice he gives, I think, is, like, tried and true battle tested. And again, he’s the real deal. So I have a preference for kind of the classics, and the people who have been in the trenches and really know what they’re talking about in a very straight talking way.

Matt Ward 31:52
And I’m pretty sure because I know David, through NSA, I’m pretty sure that fanocracy yes was I was almost I just looked it up. It was co written with his daughter, Reiko, Scott. So great, a great book to read. And to look at it from the perspective of a best selling author and journalist and professional speaker and also, teenager, you know, early, I think she might be in her 20s Now, but they just kind of,

Paige Arnof-Fenn 32:24
He’s probably a dozen books on the New York Times bestseller list. He is the real deal. He has a very clear, you know, straight talking, practical, battle tested, that those are the best books to read, I think.

Matt Ward 32:43
Cool. So um, how can anybody who’s listening on their favorite podcast app or watching on YouTube, how can they get a hold of you if they want to network with you? If they want to learn more about what it is you do or how you can help them? How can they reach out to you Paige?

Paige Arnof-Fenn 32:57
The two best ways are through my website mavens and moguls.com. It’s spelled out. And LinkedIn Paige arnof hyphen fenn. So as one of my venture capitalists buddies says to me, every time she forgets how to find me, she Google’s paige and mavens because she always forgets my hyphenated last name and both names of my company. And luckily, our site is optimized. And hopefully that will lead you to find me. With a name like mine. If you’re Googling me, it’s really me, it’s not some other person. So

Matt Ward 33:36
yeah, and we’ll have all those links in the show notes as well on the website. For those of you want to check it out, make sure that you subscribe on your favorite podcast app that you’re listening to right now. If you’re walking, you’re running your working, you’re driving. I’d love to have you subscribe and get notified of all the episodes that drop every business day here on the Mass Business Podcast. Make sure you subscribe on YouTube as well as I like to say smash that subscribe button and hit the notification so that when we put the videos up, you’ll get notified. Until next time don’t forget to live happy, smile a lot, and high five everyone around you.

Matt Ward 34:27
Thank you for listening to the Mass Business Podcast where we focus on growing a small business and understanding networking and referrals. Don’t forget to like on your favorite platform and share out this podcast. This show has been produced by Heather Grant, music by Cailte Kelley. All rights reserved. I’m your host, professional speaker, author, and word of mouth referral consultant, Matt ward. Don’t forget to live happy, smile a lot, and high five everyone around you.