Roger Michelson-audio
Wed, 8/11 9:30AM • 37:59

Matt Ward 00:01
Welcome back to Episode 18 of the mass business podcast. My name is Matt Ward, I’m your host, I’m so excited to bring you today’s guest. Today’s guest is Roger Michelson of BNMC. He’s the CEO of the company, an information technology managed service provider dedicated to offering full-service outsourcing of server desktop, network management, and support for small and medium-sized businesses. He’s a dad of two girls, loves the beach and boating, and he’s been a friend of mine for over a decade. I’m so excited to bring you my friend to Episode 18. Roger Michelson, are you ready? Let’s go. Welcome to the mass business podcast where small business owners, also known as risk-takers, share their stories about the growth of their business and themselves. Our interviews and our content is focused on growing a small business and understanding networking and referrals. I say it all the time. And I’ll say it again today. You never know where your next referral will come from. Hey, what’s going on? Roger, how are you?

Roger Michelson 01:35
Good, good. Thanks for inviting me to the podcast.

Matt Ward 01:39
Absolutely. I’m so excited to have you on you know, we’ve been friends for so long. I know what you do. I’ve done business with you before myself. But tell our listening audience on their favorite podcast platform and our viewers on YouTube. And just in short, under 30 seconds or so what it is BNMC does.

Roger Michelson 01:58
Sure. So BNMC is what’s called a managed service provider, MSP. And what MSPs do is that they act as the IT department for small businesses. So for a company that can’t really afford to hire their own IT staff or IT department, they can outsource their entire IT department to an MSP like BNMC. And we manage everything from Help Desk support to technology, and even as their virtual CIO to the business owners.

Matt Ward 02:30
Right. And so to some of you small businesses, you might be thinking of virtual CIO, you’re like laughing right now. But the reality is, is MSPs in general, provide tech support, just call it that, they provide computer tech support to small and medium sized businesses and when you need, often in terms of just solopreneurs and entrepreneurs, when you need a computer guy MSPs can be your computer guy, right? Many MSPs grow from a sole proprietor type standard, to grow. Now, talk a little bit about your growth. When did you start Roger? When did BNMC start in business?

Roger Michelson 03:09
Sure. So my business partner, and the founder, Eric Brady started back in 1991. Exactly that as a sole proprietor, as that one man shop. And he, you know, started growing the business as a consulting, you know, practice. And that’s how a lot of MSPs started years ago, I joined them in 2007. And we really solidified the business as a managed service provider sort of moved from that consulting or what we call break fix where that’s calling your IT guy to fix things to become a much more strategic company for our customers.

Matt Ward 03:49
And so over the years, you know, you’ve grown and been an integral part in growing as business, I’ve watched you grow. In fact, we met through a mutual friend, business coach, and then we’re involved in a CEO peer group together. So I know like when I had a web design agency, that’s when I was in that peer group. And I know that you very much believe in that. You know, how much has a CEO peer group or even just business groups like that helped you grow your business?

Roger Michelson 04:27
Well, it’s, it’s been huge. I mean, first off, networking and referrals are the number one way to get business in a lot of small businesses, but especially in MSPs, because when we’re your IT department, trust is a huge issue. You have to trust your MSP You’ve basically given us the keys of your kingdom to support your data, and your and so the easiest way to get new customers is through referrals and referrals from a trusted source is huge, but not only that, Matt, I find that You know, we all have challenges in businesses. And when you have a sounding board when you have other CEOs or other peers that you can talk to, and you and I have done this for years, just going over our challenges and trying to find solutions together, that’s huge. And we can all work together on that.

Matt Ward 05:17
It’s like Jim Rohn said, right, that you are the equal the five people that surround you, right? You’re the average of the five people that surround you. And so if you surround yourself with people who are driven in business to grow, they’re looking for solutions to the problems and most people funny enough, I wrote about this, in my new book, Roger that. Most people think that they are the only one with the problem. And they also think that the only other person who might have the problem is the person in their industry that does what they do. Well, that’s not true, right? I mean, we all have sales problems. We all have management problems. We all have cashflow problems, we all have bank problems and finance problems. We all have building issues, we all have staffing issues. They’re often solved in similar ways in different organizations or different industries. And being around people that have similar problems, helps you solve your similar problems.

Roger Michelson 06:22
Well, not only that, Matt, we all went through the covid 19 pandemic, in fact, we’re still living it today.

Matt Ward 06:27
No, wait, you mean to tell me it wasn’t just you that went through the covid 19 pandemic?

Roger Michelson 06:31
And though different industries had different challenges, and IT actually, you know, was, had to go into high gear, basically, we’re now dealing not just with the pandemic, but huge cybersecurity issues that are in the news, everybody’s reading about it and affects every single business. So yeah, just trying to get through some of these challenges and talking to other CEOs. And from my standpoint, other MSPs on how we, you know, deal with some of these,

Matt Ward 07:01
So you’re of the mindset that you should not only just talk to other CEOs in other industries, but also be involved, aren’t you in some sort of peer group in your own industry sector?

Roger Michelson 07:12
Absolutely. So I’m involved in a couple of peer groups, but I’m involved in a peer group, that’s just CEOs of other MSPs. So we’re all it all the time. And we talk geek speak so but we really are dealing with the same challenges every business is dealing with. Hiring qualified people, it’s hard to find, you know, good people, increasing and growing our business and sales. And, and really meeting our KBIs and our metrics and being more profitable. I mean, it’s the same thing that every business owner is dealing with just in our industry, we can really focus and drive right down into those KBIs that we look at that maybe not all, you know….

Matt Ward 07:53
Define for the audience, what you define as a KBI.

Roger Michelson 07:56
So key business indicator, basically KBI in my industry has things to do like reactive hours per endpoint per month from a server, a helpdesk service ticket, right? So that’s like, very specific. If I want to get my business more efficient, and my help desk and technical support engineers more efficient, I need to drive that time per ticket down. You know, that’s something that’s very MSP focused. And I have other ones like percentage of profitability, percentage of services versus hardware and software.

Matt Ward 08:30
Yeah, I mean, key performance. Roger calls them KBIs, I’ve heard them called KPIs, right. Key Performance Indicators doesn’t matter. But it’s like, what matters is what you measure, so to speak, I think there’s a book on that. But consistently, you know, I always look at things like from a networking referral perspective, you want more referrals, right? You track the one to ones you’re doing? How many one to ones are you doing to get more referrals? How are you learning about other people’s business? How do you get the one on ones?, You’re going to networking groups, and networking events, and business events. And so you track how many business events are doing? So you’re basically just tracking two metrics there that will help you produce referrals, right? And you don’t, you don’t start tracking 10 or 12 different KPIs or KBIs. You track one or two, and you grow from there. You know, you start to modify the different indicators that you want to track. But sometimes they don’t tell you the real story, right? Because they could be, they’re what we call lagging indicators. So if you track sales numbers, or profit, that’s a lagging indicator. Because lagging indicators are results that happen after the work or the thing is done. And leading indicator for sales might be the number of phone calls you’re receiving. Because it’s pre sale, right? And so a leading indicator, you know, tracking the number of referrals you get is a post indicator. A leading indicator might be the number of networking events, you go to a networking one to ones you go to.

Roger Michelson 10:08
And we call them smart numbers also, because it’s kind of a silly term, but it’s only a certain amount of numbers that are really helping you focus your business, you should think of it like setting a scorecard. And keeping the scorecard going. We follow the entrepreneurial operating system, EOS, EOS, and traction.

Matt Ward 10:29
So, hold on, let me stop you right there. That’s a great book that I that we will list in the show notes, it’s called Traction by Gino Wickman. And it’s an EOS system, it’s a system by which you can run your business, you can do this, if you’re a one person company. It’s a very great system. And there are in fact, consultants in the world that are EOS implementers that actually help companies implement this if you don’t want to do it yourself. But what it really does is get you focused in on the right thing. So I want to make sure the audience knows and understands what, what EOS is, and how it can actually change your business. Kind of like the stuff I’ve talked about before with Mike Michalowicz’s Profit First, right? It’s a system. Sometimes you need help getting the system installed, sometimes you don’t I implement a profit first on my own. I, if I did EOS, I wouldn’t implement it on my own, I would just, I would just have somebody helped me implement it. So how has EOS in general helped you grow your business?

Roger Michelson 11:29
Well, it’s been excellent. It’s really a framework. And that’s not the only framework out there, there’s a bunch of them that you can look at, but EOS is, is a popular framework that allows us to structure our meetings, understand how our staffing is and when we should keep staff and when we should let them go and are they the right staff for us, and, you know, really focuses on things like scorecards, and managing your business to grow your business to gain traction. And, you know, it’s it’s been instrumental in allowing us to kind of focus on what we should be working on in the business to grow it. For example, the basis of it is a vision, traction organizer or VTO. But it helped us, you know, we step back when we started EOS and said, What is our vision for the company? What do we want to do? What is our core values of the company? And how do we go to the next level? And then every year, we set annual goals for the year, but we break that down into quarters and say what are we going to get done that quarter, and we call that rocks that’s in the traction world? It’s rocks, basically. But those are things that we need to get done to make it to the next level, and allows us to get that annual, the annual numbers they know targets that we’re going for financially and growth wise as well as a three year and a 10 year plan.

Matt Ward 12:58
Yeah. So as you’re listening to this on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube, viewing it, make sure you add in the comments, right? Whether it be on social or on YouTube, what are you doing to track the things that you’re doing? Are you using the EOS system? Are you using some other system? We’re not talking about? How are you staying on track with your business and organizing it in a way that makes sense for you? And share that? Because that’s what this podcast is really all about It’s like, what can other people learn from the guests that we have on the show and how they run their business? Roger, I know that over the years, you’ve done a great job, right? You built a great business, millions of dollars in revenue, or whatever it is. I’ve always looked up to you as a business owner, somebody that has consistently driven forward. What do you think some of the keys are behind that?

Roger Michelson 13:57
So I think one thing is, is business planning is really important. And that kind of goes back to what we were saying if you don’t have a plan in place, and you break down what your goals are for the year and you break it into small chunks, so that you can get something done every month. Okay. So for example, let’s say that you want to grow the business by an additional $50,000 or 100,000 this year, well, that might seem a big number for a small business person. But if you break it down into smaller chunks, so that every month you know, you have to get just 10 grand in new business or in our case, you know, 1 to 3 new customers. Then you can focus that plan on how many dials, how many referrals, how many calls you have to make to bring in 1 to 3 new customers, right? And it’s you can’t set a humongous goal and then just throw darts and hope you’re gonna hit, it doesn’t work that way.

Matt Ward 14:58
So what you do is you set the goal, then you break it down into a smaller chunk goal, and then you break that down into action steps to achieve that goal.

Roger Michelson 15:06
Yes, exactly. So for example, if you want one to three new customers this month, what do you have to achieve? You know, what do you have to get done to do that? And how many leads do you need? How many referrals do you need? And have you, you know, work through that.

Matt Ward 15:24
So you’re so busy, you’re even getting calls during the podcast?

Roger Michelson 15:27
Yeah, that’s my customers calling to talk about….

Matt Ward 15:29
To buy more stuff to meet your goals. That’s awesome. So um, what are the What do you think the biggest challenge is? I mean, look, you’re a successful business. There’s no, there’s no, there’s no debating that. I’ve seen you grow over the years. But successful businesses have challenges too. What do you think your biggest challenge is in your business right now?

Roger Michelson 15:56
So I think our biggest challenge right now is staffing and getting the right qualified staff and employees in our business. You know, our employees are everything. Basically, the difference between us and our competitors is only our employees, we all have the same tools, all the same technology, we all use Microsoft Office 365, or email or, you know, the difference between us is the people. And, um, you know, it’s, it’s difficult to find really, really good people, I think that’s a difficult thing for a lot of businesses. I’ve talked a lot of CEOs. And of course, we’re seeing this after the pandemic across all industries, right, even going out to restaurants, Home Depot, or Lowe’s, or, you know, supermarkets are all challenged with that. You know, and so, we think that we’re in a good situation. But we recently had to hire new engineers to replace ones that either wasn’t working out or left. And, and that’s been a challenge. I think, also, I appreciate you, you know, your comments on our growth, but I’m not, we’re not done yet. We have a lot, we have a lot of goals, we want to grow the business to three times the size that we are now over the next three to five years. And so sales is and marketing are, you know, and bringing new business in is a continuing challenge.

Matt Ward 17:26
And you obviously have to balance that right, because we have challenges here. We still have operations, we have staff, you have to, you’re weighing what to deal with, are you finding ways to, to outsource to other people and things to try and get, because I would imagine your time is stretched thin? Right?

Roger Michelson 17:48
Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the things that we’ve had to do, as we’ve grown as it was, when you’re small, you wear many, many hats as the owners. So for example, we’re still relatively an owner run sales, you know, organization, we’re trying to get out of that mode. Because as, as the CEO and owner, I can’t sell and manage operations and manage customers and wear 18 hats, basically. So as you grow, what we’ve been doing is is is outsourcing things like marketing, you know, so we have an organization that we work with that helps us with our marketing, we do some of our own marketing in house, but we’ve leveraged them, we’re looking to hire sales, people that can complement what we’ve already built in our model. And, you know, it’s the same thing with administration or accounting or, you know, operations we’ve, we’ve brought some additional staff in to help out. But we’ve also outsource to organizations that can help.

Matt Ward 18:53
How do you continue to, to grow your personal knowledge and education, in the world of business? And obviously, you’re probably staying in touch with the things that are happening in your industry. But what about business in general? Is it generally through the CEO groups? Or what other tools do you use?

Roger Michelson 19:11
So I tend to try to go to one or two industry conferences a year. And in our industry, like a lot of industries, the conferences are other business owners, and the vendors that are supporting that industry. So there’s no customers there. It’s really a time that we can step away from the business. So it’s usually at another location, you have to get in the plane and fly so you get out of the office. And you really focus on either business or in our case technology updates and there’s a ton of networking and we talk to other business owners and we talk about our challenges. And we talk to industry experts and coaches that are at these conferences too. And we hear from speakers like you Matt, who give us advice on how to get more referrals. So I actually find that, I mean you know, there’s so many conferences, I could go to one every other week in our industry, right? So you have to balance your time to that. But I find those very valuable in helping us grow our business. And I’ve made some lifelong connections and friends at those conferences, two that I still keep in touch with, even though they’re my competitors, they’re also friends, and they’re also peers.

Matt Ward 20:27
You’re learning so much from them, right?

Roger Michelson 20:29
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, we’ll, we’ll connect, basically, you know, for example, I got a good friend in Los Angeles that I met at a conference 10, 15 years ago. He’s an MSP owner, he and I talk, you know, a couple times a year, and we see each other at the conferences, and when I went out to LA, I met up with him and his business partner, and we sat and talked business, you know, and how are you doing? And it was great, you know?

Matt Ward 20:56
What, what do you, as you look back on the growth of your company, what one thing do you know, now that you wish you knew back then?

Roger Michelson 21:08
One? There’s like hundreds. The amount of mistakes that I’ve made over the years, that, you know, has been huge, um, I would say, you know, I wish that I did certain things, from a, from a networking standpoint, and a sales standpoint earlier. And, it’s, difficult because you, you know, you can’t grow too fast, you know, one of the things that we did is, we’ve pretty much bootstraped this company, we didn’t go out and get venture capital or additional financing. And there’s nothing wrong with that model. By the way, I mean, if you want to go out and get financing and try to grow faster, there are pros and cons with that, you know, we work with some banks to get some financing for hardware and offices and things like that. But, I wish I really got involved in the in the peer groups and CEO groups a lot faster. Because those have really helped accelerate, you know, our, our growth and solving some of our business problems, and getting us through some of the difficult times as well.

Matt Ward 22:17
What are some books that you can recommend, business strategy books that you recommend for other small business owners to read or get their hands on? We talked about Traction a minute ago. What other books do you think would be game changers for small businesses and solo entrepreneurs?

Roger Michelson 22:34
Oh, there’s a lot of them. You know, Traction was definitely one. And I think you mentioned, you know, Profit First. And I have a bunch of books that are all very helpful. The one I just finished reading was called The Big Leap. And it’s an excellent book, it’s, it’s actually much more, it’s part business and part personal. It’s about getting yourself to the zone of, of excellence, basically, and a lot of us are, you know, we work really hard in our business life in our personal life. But a lot of times we get stuck, basically, in the current zone that we’re in and getting to that next zone. It’s, it’s a fascinating book, it’s an easy read, I highly recommend it. It’s called The Big Leap.

Matt Ward 23:22
That’s great. Let’s talk about software for a second. I know that in your industry, you know, there’s there’s MSP specific software, but excluding that for now. What software tool would you recommend to small business owners that has changed the game for you? Is it maybe it’s a hack, maybe it’s a tiny piece of software? Or maybe it’s a full suite of software? What software do you think would work for small business owners to help them grow?

Roger Michelson 23:52
So there’s a buzzword that’s out there in our industry, that’s called digital transformation. But basically, what that means is, it’s leveraging a lot of the tools that come with Microsoft Office 365. So most people when they think Office 365, they think email, and maybe one drive a place to store your files. But really where the magic is in Office 365 is with Teams, and Power BI, and some of the additional toolsets that you get. So I would highly recommend Teams. So Teams is not just a video conferencing tool like zoom, okay. That’s how people were introduced to Teams is through the pandemic when everybody’s working remote still. Teams has a lot more to do with collaboration, and working together, and sharing data among both your business your employees, your staff, your customers, your vendors. Everybody can work together on Teams. And so video conferencing is one, chatting is one, you can post files there. It leverages the whole strength of SharePoint basically, it’s its back end. And, and it’s really where Microsoft is putting all their development. Power BI is business intelligence, okay, it takes Teams to the next level and takes things like the scorecard, that we talked about and the KPIs or KBIs, and starts allowing you to work through those numbers.

Matt Ward 25:29
Does it produce a dashboard for you?

Roger Michelson 25:31
Yeah, it has dashboards, the concept of the smart numbers I talked about, we basically use Power BI to put that data that we’re talking about, the scorecard data into Power BI, and allows us to chart it, we’ll get friends, compare ourselves to my other peers. So we use it in my peer group. So we can see all the companies, what everybody’s numbers are, how we’re trending. And we talk through those numbers and what’s driving them. And the best part about all these tools, Matt, they’re actually included in your Microsoft Office 365 subscription. You know, if you have one of the higher level subscriptions, you probably already own them and paying for them, you just have to leverage them.

Matt Ward 26:19
You know that’s interesting is the whole, you know, dashboard. I got into that years ago, and kind of the, that, for those of you who are listening or viewing on YouTube, the dashboard is not the thing in your car I’m talking about right? It is actually, generally speaking, it’s a web page that pulls in data and charts that are somehow automated or integrated with the things that you want to track. So you could literally create a dashboard in Google data, for example, or Power BI, like Rogers talking about of how many emails you’ve received in a day, that’s a very easy thing to do. And so you could actually look at a dashboard that showed how many emails you’ve received in a day. Not that that is of any value to you. But that’s an example of what you could use it with. And so, many companies will use a dashboard to show and report sales across the company for the previous day or the previous week or the previous month. And it can quickly show you the health of your company if you’re tracking the right data. But where some of this stuff really comes in well, and we’re ties into the CEO or peer advisory groups that Roger was talking about, is when you mix your data with other people’s data, you can see how you’re trending. And then if you’re below standard, you can start asking questions about how to get that to standard, right, because that’s the goal. Here, the goal isn’t to determine, oh, you know, my data is lower, I suck. That’s not what this is about. It’s about improving. The reason you’re in the peer group or the CEO group is to improve. And so let me also be clear that there’s a difference between the CEO group and a peer group, right CEO group is CEOs, people running companies, perhaps they’re all the owners of solopreneurs, that could also be called a CEO group. A peer group is when the decision-maker in a company meets with other decision-makers in the exact same industry companies. And so many times there are people that won’t join these peer groups because they’re afraid of competition. They want to join a CEO group instead because they don’t want to have a competitor in the group. But you’re not there to sell anything. You’re there to grow your business.

Roger Michelson 28:56
And one thing I recommend Matt, is that when you’re looking for a peer group or even a CEO group, try to make it so that you’re the smallest one in that group that you’re learning from people that have already gone through things that you’re trying to go through, right?

Matt Ward 29:14
So Did I ever tell you I was in a CEO group, and I was the only guy who wasn’t making $200,000 a year. And that was purposeful, Roger, like, it’s exactly what you’re saying. I’m like, Okay, I’m not making 200 grand, all these people are, I’m joining this group so that I can make 200 grand a year. Like that’s literally what you’re talking about, right?

Roger Michelson 29:37
Right, surround yourself with people that are smarter than you or have gone through with you. So you’re getting advice from them to help you grow. And if you’re, you know, the only one making 500,000 everyone else making 100,000 in that group, that’s not the right group for you. You need to be in the one that has everybody that’s making a million.

Matt Ward 29:57
So if you get the people to say you know, you get the people who have been ahead of you, right? They’ve been ahead of you, by years. They’ve dealt with the problem that you’re about to deal with, and you don’t know you’re about to deal with. Right? So if they’re four years ahead of you, right, then you’re about to deal with that challenge. You know, I’ve heard it said over and over again, I think even our producer Heather mentioned it about her dad is that he always said, you don’t want to be the smartest person in the room.

Roger Michelson 30:32
Right. And when you hire people, make sure you’re hiring people that are smarter than you. You want to surround yourself with smart people.

Matt Ward 30:37
All day, you want to be the dumbest person in the room. I’m telling you right now, you’re not dumb. You just want to be the dumbest, like, so here’s the thing about that. Like, when you have such a value add right there, Roger, when you hire people, hire people smarter than you.

Roger Michelson 30:58
And that’s why it’s difficult to find. You asked me my biggest challenge, it’s difficult to find really good people.

Matt Ward 31:05
Is it difficult to find people that are smarter than you, is that is it? It’s tough for you? Isn’t it is really tough?

Roger Michelson 31:11
No, I mean, in all seriousness.

Matt Ward 31:15
Now, let’s be clear, we’re talking about hire people smarter than you not hire the smart asses. Anyway, so this is the thing, though, and this is important. And, there’s the thing about this, you hire the person who is smarter than you in their zone of genius. So they don’t need to be smarter from a CEO perspective, or smarter from a numbers perspective, if they’re an engineer, if they’re a coder, if they’re a developer, if they’re a software engineer, a tech engineer, a support specialist, right? What you want to do is hire the best CPA possible, the best numbers of person for accounting possible, they’re super smart in that area, and they’re going to help you, but they might not be the best decision-makers when it comes to hiring, that’s for the HR person, right. And then when it comes to the tech, you want to hire the smartest people in tech, those people are going to be horrible about organization or numbers and finances, you’re not looking……. Remember to keep it in the zone of genius, when you’re hiring these people. Sometimes, when you’re looking for somebody, even if it’s just one, you’re a solopreneur, and you want to add the next person, hiring a jack of all trades is not the best decision to make. It’s just not the best decision, because they’re not going to be an expert at anything. And that’s going to hurt the business, you want an expert to come in, in a very vertical position to help you grow in that way. That’s the way to do it, folks. That’s the way to do it. Roger has been great having you on the show. I love every minute of it. And what I love more is over the 10 plus years, we’ve known each other, we’ve had absolute countless conversations about business. But there isn’t a single time we get together. And we’re not text messaging, instant messaging, calling each other on the phone. And we’re like, Hey, what’s going on? What’s the update? Oh, by the way, how about this business thing or that business thing? We’re always, Roger and I years ago, we bought land in the Cayman Islands and we flipped it. I’m telling you, people, it’s the craziest thing. And you never know where things are gonna happen.

Roger Michelson 33:35
The other night, we were at Dunkin Donuts, and we were having horrible service and you and I re-engineered Dunkin donuts……

Matt Ward 33:42
That was the most ridiculous thing ever. By the way. I was like, how does this even happen? Like literally,

Roger Michelson 33:49
And you go to Dunkin every day, so you know how it should run.

Matt Ward 33:52
Oh, my goodness, like when you close the lobby door and lock it at Dunkin donuts? Because you have not enough staff and too much business. And you’re serving the coffee orders wrong. This is not a staffing issue. This is a process issue. I mean, there weren’t even hardly any lines.

Roger Michelson
We fixed it, I’m not sure they heard but……

Matt Ward
We’ve fixed it. But they didn’t want to hear about it. Yeah. And so these are the beautiful things like and these. It’s so funny because that lesson about Dunkin Donuts actually parlays into business. And like you start to think your brain starts to think about what’s wrong in your own business in your own process that you can just tweak one thing. We are constantly Heather and I are constantly tweaking small little things about this podcast, right? The things we do the things we say the way we book guests, the way we reach out to guests. We’re constantly making small tweaks. And that’s what being in business is all about. And whether you’re using Traction, or Profit First, or peer groups or CEO groups or conferences, all the things that Roger talked about. Just remember to make small tweaks. That’s a way that you can constantly be making progress in your business. Roger, I love our conversations all the time. It’s always fun talking to you. And I can’t wait to talk to you again. I’m sure it’ll be tomorrow or the next day like we always do. We’re always conversing. For those people that are interested in learning more if they want to reach out and learn about how you implement Traction or Profit First, or whatever I know you’re more than willing to share. But also if they want to reach out learn more about your company BNMC as an MSP, perhaps maybe because they want to do business with you? Or maybe they want to network with you and do referrals. How can they find you? Where can they go find you?

Roger Michelson
So you can absolutely go to our website, which is www.bnmc.net. You can also find me on LinkedIn. So you know, Roger Michelson, you know, at LinkedIn, and that’s kind of, and you can also send me an email. My email is Roger@bnmc.net. And, and I love networking and reaching out to people.
Matt Ward
Yeah, so we’ll make sure all that’s in the show notes, including the link to his LinkedIn, link to the website, link to the email Feel free to reach out to him. We greatly appreciate you listening, make sure that you subscribe on that favorite podcast app of yours and that you smash that subscribe button, and notification button on YouTube. We’re looking for more subscribers for sure. We greatly appreciate it. Thanks for listening. And as I always say, don’t forget to live happy, smile a lot. And high five everyone around you.

Outro- Thank you for listening to the mass business podcast where we focus on growing a small business and understanding networking and referrals. Don’t forget to like on your favorite platform and share out this podcast. This show has been produced by Heather Grant, music by Cailte Kelley. All rights reserved. I’m your host, professional speaker, author, and word of mouth referral consultant, Matt Ward. Don’t forget to live happy, smile a lot, and high-five everyone around you.