Sept 21, 2021
The Mass Business Podcast
Season 1, Episode 17 – Focus Accelerates Growth, with Liann DiMare
In this episode, I have a little chat with business owner Liann DiMare. She’s a property owner and manager with iTrip Vacations and she and I discuss keeping up with changes in the market, business growth, and networking. Liann tells us how she does market research and analysis to ensure that her client’s vacation rental properties are performing the best. Going along with Season one’s focus of “Educate Yourself” Liann tells us how she learns what matters. Are you ready? Let’s go!!
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Liann DiMare 7_22 8am
Wed, 8/11 9:30AM • 39:14
Matt Ward 00:00
Hey, welcome back to the Mass Business Podcast episode number 17. My name is Matt Ward, and I am your exclusive host for this awesome show. Thank you for joining us on your favorite podcast app and right here on YouTube. I’ve got a great guest for you, my friend, Leanne DiMare. She’s an ambassador for our destinations and fellow real estate investor. Leanne brings together her love of New England with her passion for real estate, to provide market-leading incomes and meticulous care for owners that entrust their properties with itrip vacations. She’s a leading authority in the vacation rental industry, right here in Massachusetts. Are you excited? I’m excited to learn more about what she does and how she’s growing her business in the model that she’s got. Are you ready? Let’s go.
Matt Ward 01:07
Welcome to the Mass Business Podcast where small business owners, also known as risk-takers share their stories about the growth of their business and themselves. Our interviews and our content is focused on growing a small business, and understanding networking and referrals. I say it all the time. And I’ll say it again today. You never know where your next referral will come from.
Matt Ward 01:41
Hey there, welcome to the show, Liann. It’s great to see you.
Liann DiMare 01:43
It’s great to see you too. Matt, thank you so much for having me on.
Matt Ward 01:47
Absolutely. Now in under 30 seconds or so just tell the listening and viewing audience what it is you do at itrip?
Liann DiMare 01:54
Oh, sure, I’d love to. So for itrip and for basically the clients of itrip, I manage properties as short-term rentals. So investors, second homeowners, or even people who want to have a guest suite in their home, so residents, can leverage my services for short-term rental management, to generate income from their real estate investments.
Matt Ward 02:21
Got it. And I am lucky enough to have been a vacation rental owner for quite a few years. I’ve had it for seven years and spoke at four vacation rental conferences. So I understand the industry and I understand the challenges in the industry. And so briefly, I just want to mention that if you’re listening, you’re new and you’re you know, you’ve heard the big names, but you might have heard the VRBO’s the V-R-B-O’s or the airbnbs. Right. These are different platforms that a lot of people associate with the industry. But there’s a lot of other things that happen behind the scenes that most people aren’t aware of. And that brings me to want to bring on Liann, not so much to talk about the industry cuz I don’t think many of you, I mean, look, if you’re interested in the industry, I’m going to tell you straight up, reach out to Liann, and she can educate you She loves to network. And she’s happy to have a conversation, whether you own a vacation rental or not, or a second home or not. She’s happy to share her knowledge with you. But I think, it’s important for me to have Liann on because there’s so much that changes in that industry. And as a business owner, you’ve got to stay up to date, right? How are you consistently maintaining your knowledge within your sphere to ensure that your business stays up to date?
Liann DiMare 03:38
Oh, boy, well, you know, I’ve got to constantly learn. So there are a few things that I do that are basically kind of what I would call transient information, things like market, the market conditions, the market, how the market is performing, what, are there any pivots or shifts or even tectonic shifts in the market, you know, like COVID was a tectonic shift, right? Everybody was shutting down short-term rentals. So the need to pivot quickly to provide medium-term rentals for people who want to get out of maybe a small space to a big space. That’s the sort of thing you need to stay right on top of for transient information. So I’m watching the market all the time. And I’m watching it at a macro level, where you kind of look at what’s going on generally. So what an example of that is when you look at what’s happened through the pandemic, and then after, the short-term rental market was on a steady growth trend. There were new travelers entering that market on a pretty regular basis. The demographic of the people pursuing and showing a new interest in short term rentals with things like baby boomers, Millennials, Gen X, and they were seeing you know, Grandma wants to take the grandkids on vacation, but it’s way cheaper to rent a house than five hotel rooms, as an example. So the tectonic shifts that we affect that what has affected the market from the short-term rentals as a result of the pandemic was basically, that we had a huge influx of new travelers. So if you look at what happens with short-term rentals, you get new travelers trying it, and of the new travelers who try it, it’s over 80% become loyal to that market. So when hotels shut down, we had a huge influx, normally, we get like maybe 20% new travelers every year. And the pandemic we ended up with, like 60% 80% in some markets. So suddenly, we had huge influx of new travelers. And we had, and the loyalty levels remain the same. So you got influx with high loyalty levels. Add to that, that we had, we had a constriction of the short-term rentals because with things being shut down, people couldn’t afford to keep them. So they sold them. We’ve got like demand, cranking, and supply dropping, that’s a perfect storm for somebody to invest, right? Because now you can charge a premium. Right? So that’s the sort of macro level market analysis that I’m doing on a regular basis. And then there’s the micro level, it’s like what’s happening in this particular area on these particular dates? You know, is it time to raise the prices, drop the prices? How do I help my client’s properties, performance, market-leading property? So I like to, you know, I strive to be a top-performing property and every segment of every…..
Matt Ward 06:49
And you’re just doing constant searches to stay up to date on this and constant price checks and reading blogs and information, how do you stay up to date with all the knowledge and information that has to come in and go and flow? So I have a few ways I do that? First, I buy data.
So I have three different sources of market data that I use for the short-term rental market. And then I have two different sources that I use for the real estate market. So that you can because you know, it’s always ROI, right return on investment, I have to spend a lot of money for a place, I need to be sure I’m going to make good money on that. So the real estate space, the content that matters is you know what’s going on from a selling perspective and a rental value perspective in the long term space. Because let’s face it, an investor is looking at a property’s income potential. And they’ll look at it in comparison to the long-term rental present.
Matt Ward 07:48
Now, how did you get to the point where I mean, because like this stuff is pretty deep educational knowledge related stuff. And it’s also specific, I want to point out to the listening and viewing audience is specific to her industry, right, you need to do the research and stay up to date on the things that matter in your industry. And I think digging into this is sort of perhaps an aha moment that maybe some of us as small business owners don’t necessarily follow the market, or the industry trends in our specific industries as much as we should. But when you first got into this business, you likely didn’t do this much, you know, monitoring, so to speak. Where did it come from? Where did you learn to do this much, you know, analysis or continuous updating?
Liann DiMare 08:38
So market analysis business, you know, having sort of a strategic view of the market and understanding how to see the real world behind the data and validate that the data with the interpretation of the data reflected the real world, came from my corporate experience. I used to be in business strategy and operations for a large corporation. So this level of analytical experience comes from that. But what, what I found is the application of it in this industry was essential to being a market leader. Right? So so that learning, so how do you learn if you’re in a new industry, or you’re starting a new business, how do you learn what matters?
Matt Ward 09:27
Right, right, exactly. Yeah, that’s the question right. How do you learn what matters. Right?
Liann DiMare 09:32
Right. How do you know like, Where do I spend my time because, you know, the nature of a small business owner is there’s always too much to do. Right? And when there is too much to do, then you have to, you are the owner, you’re the only person who can guide you to, where do you spend your time and where not right you can get caught up in the cogs of day to day operations. And that doesn’t necessarily progress your agenda, right? So a big part of learning what matters is stepping back and having an anchor yourself against, well, how do you want to be differentiated in your market? And, and when you understand what is important for your brand, then that helps you to create the filter for what matters most. Now Liann, how long have you been in business with I trip? How long have you been doing vacation rental? So so those are sort of two different questions in a way. So I started investing in real estate in 2006 as an investor, you know. I bought my home in the 90s. But as an investor, I started in 2006. My first vacation rental purchase was in 2009. You know, so I’ve been an owner of a property for while I got into this business, I launched my short-term rental management business in March of 2018. So I’ve been in business, you know, three and a half years, right. So now how did I learn what was important? And what was going to be differentiating? Right, is I looked at the market and said, you know, what, what are other people doing? What are the successful ones doing? And then how do I become, you know, kind of best of breed? Right? Those were the questions that I asked myself. In three and a half years of doing this business, at what point did you learn that networking was the way that you would market be a primary way that you market your business,? I started there. And the reason I started there is because you have to build your brand and your reputation. And you need to build your credibility and your confidence. So the best way to do that is this is a business of trust. People entrust a valuable asset with me. And trust me to generate the best possible income and take very good care of that asset. Well, trust comes from networking. You have to connect with people. You have to understand people you have to listen, listen, listen, listen, and more listening. And then you need to kind of connect what are the interests and concerns and opportunities that a potential client sees? Or a connection could see in what you do? How often are you networking now? I have, I am an active member of five different networking groups right now. And I informally network all the time. Just you know, I was, I was off checking a property. And I noticed somebody doing some landscaping nearby. And I went up and introduced myself because I’m always looking for quality, you know, quality work, quality contractors. So I just feel like it’s you always Introduce yourself, you’re always gabbing with people about what they’re doing, understand them. And then maybe there’s an opportunity to connect, maybe I can connect on behalf of some of my other connections to help people. Folks, I mean, I think this is a great point, right? So she’s, she’s approached the landscaper, who’s near a property that she’s managing, she can approach this person and say, Look, I have properties, and need landscapers, I’d love to build a relationship with you, and put you in my contact database so that when my owners need a landscaper, I trust you enough to refer you. That’s basically what she’s saying without saying all those words. And what happens from that is that the landscaper, can now say to their clients, who’re doing vacation rental management, or vacation rentals, here’s a vacation rental manager that can probably make you more money. And that trust that referral relationship, that partnership is is built over a long period of time 12 to 18 months, and can produce a lot of referrals going forward. And I think that there are some super valuable lessons in there that if you have if you do your work in a physical way on location and someplace and you’re running into people, it’s a great way to network you don’t have to always just be in a group to quote-unquote network you can do it the way Leann talked about. I’m super curious. Three and a half years in business. What thing do you look back to day one in wish you knew then that you now know now? Oh, that’s it. Do we have a few hours?
Matt Ward 14:52
Yeah. Let’s do it this way. Let’s say somebody approached you and says Liann, I’m about to start a business, a service-based business. It’s not vacation rental management, but it’s a service-based business. And if there’s one piece of advice you could give me today, what would it be?
Liann DiMare 15:12
I think the one thing that so for me, the learning has been when you start, you try to be everything to everyone, and you lack focus. Because you’re not really sure where the leads are going to come from, there’s a little bit of fear of whether or not the engine will actually work. As you get more experienced, and more confident in your business ability, and your business’s ability to grow, you become more focused, because you realize that, that you are building a specific brand with a specific focus. And, and you want to work with, you want to work with clients that sort of align with that. Right? So you know, at first blush, you may think, oh, I’ll do anything, right, I’ll do whatever it takes to bring in money because you’re worried you’re not gonna make any money. And I would say be in the first few months. The represent in the first few months, the business you imagine yourself as in the first year at year one, hmm, and just stay true to that vision. Because it will come. Liann, it’s so tough for business owners to find a target market and stick to it. Because they feel constantly like they’re they’re going to be pushing away clients, which is pushing away money, and they don’t realize that if they’re specialists, if they’re a managed services computer or web developer, and they’re focusing in on landscapers, for instance, we use them as an example. They can hang around all the places, the landscapers hang around, and now they’re their own The only web developer, that landscapers in that group or arena know and there’s no competition there. Focus accelerates growth. But the problem is that when you….. That’s a gold nugget right there, folks, focus accelerates growth. Because what you want to do is you want to focus on the like, for me, focus is on the types of properties that are appropriate for me, now there’s a, it’s a pretty broad range. I’m not like, you know, looking through a straw, don’t get me wrong. But at the same time, I’m, you know, I’m not trying to get properties that, you know, are not going to be, are not going to perform that you know, they’re not in the right kind of location. Now, I’ll tell you the kinds of locations, any small town can have a short-term rental, right? Because people visit every small town because their families live there. So but how you focus is more about, you know, like, for me, do I have a client cares about how the properties presented, right? Because that’s part of my brand. I do a very high-end quality representation of the property quality writeups, quality photos, professional, great photos, 3d tours, right? If people just want to have a, you know, an iPhone picture of their property up, and that’s, and they’re happy with that, then maybe I’m not the right answer. You know, and I think we have to understand so often that we don’t need 1000s of clients. Right? I often use the example we need 10. We need 20 clients. And I think that it’s, it’s so key to understand that if we just determine how many clients we need for a given year, we can break that down in a given month. And we realize we don’t need 1000s of clients. And when you realize you don’t need 1000s of clients, you can find the target market, you can educate yourself on that market. And you can go after that market and be in many cases, the sole provider in that market, you won’t have a problem. Well, what I what I might, the way I think of it is not so much number of clients. So I can imagine that. But I think of it more as percentage of market. Right? What’s a reasonable percentage of the available market that’s, that’s going to sustain you at the level you want to be sustained? Right. So like I, you know, I’ll talk to, one of the advantages of being in a franchise which itrip is, is that you’re in business for yourself, but not by yourself. Right? You have a lot of other you have a lot of fellow franchisees that you can collaborate with. And some will say, Well, you know, what, what about this or what about this and they’ll, they’ll try to like, reduce their focus, and I’ll be well what’s enough of the local market for you? Like how many? What’s the available market? How many short-term rentals are there? And is 10% enough for you to hit your financial goals? 20% enough, right? If you are, if you need 50% of the market, you probably need to expand your market. Yeah, no. So those are the ways that I kind of check it right. And then the specialization or the or the, you know, the laser focus, you know, for some things like a web developer who specializes in landscapers as you, as you’ve highlighted, that, you know, because there’s so many landscapers in a particular footprint, that’s a pretty easy way to grow. Like you said, if you get 10% of them, is that enough?
Matt Ward 20:41
Yeah, you don’t even need 10%? I mean, well, so and then you can also dial it in, right, Liann, I mean, so you can dial it in to say, I’m gonna work with landscapers who do $500,000 a year minimum. And they have two landscaping crews with two foremen right, you can structure in a way I have one client that says she works primarily with realtors who are doing 24 or more transactions per year, because what that does is define the the fact that they’re full time versus part-time, and the fact that they’re actually doing transactions that can afford the service that she provides. You know, and I think that that’s key. And it’s interesting, because, same thing, when I first started working with her, she didn’t have a defined target market. And I said, Well, let’s think about who your clients are right now. Really like working with? Who? Who, who is fun to work with? Who brings you joy, I talked about that in my new book, who brings you joy? And who pays their bills on time? Who do you not have to chase? Which one of your clients comes to the top of that list? And she said, the client I said, and what do they do? They’re a realtor. I said, Do you like, do you like that? Do you like that industry? I love that industry I’m like what if you go into that? I think that’s great. You know, so?
Liann DiMare 22:07
Yeah, so picking your target is important. Right, and picking your ideal client. And, you know, there’s also the halo effect clients. Right. And so yeah, so I think, in my opinion, focus matters. Yeah, because and then focus on, you know, the target client, but also who you are as a business. Right. So for me, the differentiators are, you know, quality, we’re all about quality, you know, we’re quality care, quality presentation, quality engagement with guests. So quality is key. The second is market-leading a want to be a market leader, especially for a in the income space, this is an income property, I’m focused on income, I want to be market-leading income and top property. So that helps and then, you know, client focus. So not every owner is focused on the same goals for a particular property. So being flexible, but deliver the expectation for the owner, right? Like, hey, it’s our future dream home. So what we just want people to help us pay for it. Right? We also want to be able to use it, or….
Matt Ward 23:29
Cause there are some people that use it, you know, all the time, a year, and then other people that never use it, right? They have different purposes.
Liann DiMare 23:38
They only want to rent it enough to sort of cover the bills,
Matt Ward 23:42
And when you think about I mean, all of this is sort of, you know, it’s interesting, because this is who you’re targeting, right? You’re in the service by which, you know, the, the core tenants by which you’re providing the service. And, you know, it’s interesting, because when I talk to small business owners, oftentimes they don’t have, you know, they come to the realization of some of these things you’re talking about over time, right? It takes time. I like to call it the 20-year overnight success. Everybody thinks we’re an overnight success. They don’t look at the past 20 years of all the work we did that you don’t actually see, quote-unquote, how the sausage is made. Right. So for you in running a small business, what is the actual biggest challenge?
Liann DiMare 24:31
Time, time. You know, there’s, you want to plan for growth. You want to plan for growth, you don’t want to pre-purchase capability before you are ready. Right. But um, so you know, you kind of have a capacity plan. You have things that don’t perfectly align right. You have a capacity plan. Like when will I need people and you have an affordability plan, when can I pay for them? And those are often not in lockstep No, when I had my agency, and I had web developers, obviously different model, but I have web developers, I would say, our web developer, our current staff member doing the work that they do have to be at 150% capacity before I can bring on somebody else. Because then I can go 75%, on both. And now I’m able to afford both people. And in growth is often a challenge. It’s often something that most small business owners want, there are some that don’t want it, because they’ve reached a level that they just don’t want it. But many, many, many small business owners want growth, and trying to juggle that growth becomes an issue because, and that’s where this time issue comes in. Right? Because it’s like, Okay, well, now all of a sudden, you’re back to doing the production work and working in the business and not on the business. Right? And so what strategies have you put in place to manage the time or free up more time, because, you know, the book I wrote Liann, the high five effect, how to do business with people who bring you joy. I have always believed the reason this book exists is that I have always believed that people left the corporate world and started a small business because they wanted three things, more money, more time, and more freedom. And they don’t get any of those three things in the first five years. So this book helps accelerate that right. How did you How are you dealing with trying to find more time in your business? So that’s so I’ve actually been doing an assessment of activities…..
Matt Ward 26:41
Time tracking assessment?
Liann DiMare 26:42
Well, doing that, yeah, I’m doing a kind of a role-based assessment. So what I’m doing is, I’m doing a Matrix Model for like, what the team needs to have from a skills perspective, from a volume perspective, and then the all the things that I do because I’m, you know, my team right now focused on sort of day to day guest operations, and all the things that I do, and I say, Well, if not me, then who? And the third part of that is okay, affordability. So if I can, can I outsource to a contractor versus hire a person? Right, right. Is there a Is there someone that you can, is there is there another small business I could hire to supplement me? So what are the different staffing strategies? Is it right? Is it you know, get temporary help? Is it outsource, is it you know, so those are the things I’m doing right now? Because the if not me, then who question is an important one And if I am going to delegate, then is it documented? Is the activity documented well enough that I can hand it off in a way that it’s not going to take more time for me, then less? Yeah, so documentation is your thing when outsourcing and also running your business from a systems and process standpoint because if somebody you have doing something leaves, you need to have everything documented, people leave for many, many different reasons. Life, life reasons, fall out at the company, they move, whatever. And so you got to think about proper documentation. There’s a book out there called Who Not How. And it’s focused on who you can get to do the tasks, not how you can figure out how to do them. Right. And it’s basically how to outsource your life, so to speak. But you know, the concept I think, just really at the end of the day, is there’s only so much bandwidth you have as a small business owner. Should you be doing the tactical work because most people, if you’ve ever read the book, The E myth, most people are the technician. They come they’re a plumber, who loves doing plumbing, they’re the landscaper loves cutting grass, but they don’t know anything about payroll. We don’t know anything about how to actually run a business. We know we’re great at doing the thing that we do and business management is much different. That’s why this podcast exists, is because business growth is so important,scaling a business and growing a business, sustaining a business is so so important. There’s so many different avenues and angles that people take. And I wanted to bring all these guests on from all these different industries in Massachusetts, and talk about how they do things differently, give ideas to other people, to see how they might be able to augment, change, modify their business in a way. It’s really impactful. What what I always like to ask the guests on the podcast, what piece of software is a game-changer for you and I’m not talking about industry-specific software for vacation rental. I’m talking about business management and software tools. If I walked into your office today and took it away, you’d be so mad at me. What software could you share with the listening or viewing audience on YouTube that, that they should get their hands on? Yeah, cuz I’m, I’m very particular when I embrace a tool. Yeah. You know, we used to have a white paper when I was at corporate, in corporate because I was in technology. And the white paper was a fool with a tool is still a fool. Because many people buy a tool with an anticipated effect. And the bottom line is to affect change, you need three pieces. It’s a three-legged stool, its people its process, and its technology. So if you buy technology, and you don’t have the people in the process, then the technology will not, cannot hold the stool up on its own. And that’s the reason why we had that, you know, kind of white paper. So that was the essence, the essence of the message.
Matt Ward 31:03
So is there a piece of software, business management software of some sort that you have embraced, you know, from the people and process perspective?
Liann DiMare 31:15
So for my financial management perspective, I found that QuickBooks is the best job aid. It gives you it’s got the versatility I need because you know, right now, I’ve expanded from Massachusetts, North Essex, county, Massachusetts, up into New Hampshire. So two separate, separate states, and…. that’s good point. Yeah. So So QuickBooks is great. I, you know, since I’m so analytical, I use a lot of I use spreadsheets a lot to sort of, assess and do things like, you know, believe it or not, I have I have a number of capacity management aspects to my business, like, Do I have enough linens to support property sets, right, and they deployed in the right location, so that we can be sure where, you know, I can keep the cleaners moving, right. So so there’s a lot of like, you know, kind of analytical pieces and a lot. And then in the industry space, I mean, part of the reason I bought the itrip platform I bought I took franchise was for the platform, basically, the minute you sign a property, you’re in business, everything’s been connected, you’ve got you know, we’ve got, you’ve got the bookings coming in, you’ve got information being distributed, so you know, you’re gonna pay a cleaner, you’re gonna pay the owner, you know, so and then any other maintenance. So that platform, basically, for me made it the business turnkey, which was so important. So and frankly, that’s I think the one of the things that I did right in the beginning, you know, I could have gone off and said, I’m a short term rental manager, I could have done it myself, I could have homegrown this homegrown that. But I thought bringing a national brand in as, as a means to differentiate and a platform that made all the work about networking, connecting, and being trustworthy. was way more important and a better place for me to spend my time.
Matt Ward 33:19
Yeah. So I mean, that’s powerful. Right? So I love that because, like, why try and figure out something new with processing systems, if something exists in your industry, right, you’re in, no matter what industry, you know, you’re in, to the listener, that you’re listening on this podcast or viewing this on YouTube, no matter what industry you’re in there’s someone that’s created software for you. The question is, is it the right fit for you, you got to look at it, you got to make the investment if you think it’s right, so that you can free up more time, like Liann talked about earlier, time is the big issue. You’ve heard that on previous episodes of this podcast, it will free up time to allow you to start doing some other stuff. And that’s, that’s great. Um, speaking of time, one thing I like to get from guests is, is, you know, I think a lot of business owners like to read to continue to educate themselves. I would like to hear from you to share with the listening audience, the viewing audience on YouTube. What one business book, would you recommend that they read?
Liann DiMare 34:31
You know, frankly, it’s an oldie but a goodie. Okay. And there’s there’s actually two books by the same author. One is the seven habits. Stephen Covey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Okay, because those habits when you instill those habits into your life, you truly do become more effective. And another book by him The Speed Of Trust. Oh, yes. That’s because you know, I’m going to trust-based business. So You know, if you’re in if the speed of trust is so powerful because it is really enlightening, about, you know, kind of it tunes your ear to listen, so that you can understand what people will trust, you actually can formulate the strategies and habits to be trustworthy. And it’s huge.
Matt Ward 35:23
I would recommend picking up a copy of that, folks, because, you know, Speed Of Trust is gonna help you in networking and referrals, big time, like big time. And even if you got to read it two or three times, sometimes one thing I’ll sometimes do is read a book and also buy it on Audible. So I can follow the audio with the book in my hands. Everybody has a different way of learning. But if you check out the show notes, On this episode, we’ll have links to those books on Amazon, so you can link right to them. And that way, you’re, you’re finding the right book. Liann, thanks for coming on the podcast, it’s been great to learn about you your business and how you’ve grown in the three and a half years. And I’m excited to see where things go in the next three and a half years for you. If the listening audience, as I mentioned, wants to reach out to learn more about the industry, what you do, perhaps even consider hiring you or frankly, just do some awesome networking, how can they get in touch with you?
Liann DiMare 36:15
Oh, there are a few ways. So I have an email address, of course. And it’s my first name Liann, Liann@itrip.net, please feel free to reach out that way. And I have a website that actually describes the services and that you can, you can actually see the properties I managed. So you can see what I mean by a professional presentation if you will. And that is North Shore. All one word, so N-O-R-T-H-S-H-O-R-E dot itrip.co. C-O And if they go there, they can reach out to me as well, because that has phone numbers, emails, and you know, you can actually submit requests for things like a pro former, which is basically an estimate for how we think your property would perform as a short term rental.
Matt Ward 37:05
So there you go, folks, there you have it. We talked about books, we talked about software, we talked about growth in a small business, we talked about strategic planning, we talked golden nuggets all day today, I met Liann through a networking group that meets a couple times a month. I highly recommend you get out there and do more and more networking. As I always like to say you never know where your next referral is gonna come from. Thanks for joining us on the show, Liann. We greatly appreciate it. It’s Episode 17 in the books and in the can. We’ll talk to you tomorrow. Don’t forget to live happy, smile a lot, and high-five everyone around you. Thank you for listening to the mass business podcast where we focus on growing a small business and understanding networking and referrals. Don’t forget to like on your favorite platform and share out this podcast. This show has been produced by Heather Grant. Music by Cailte Kelley. All rights reserved. I’m your host, professional speaker, author and word of mouth referral consultant, Matt Ward. Don’t forget to live happy. smile a lot, and high-five everyone around you.